I try to stay away from blog ranting most of the time. I would rather just post links to funny pictures and videos. Or affirm some in their attempts to instruct on geographical location...
But, this whole Prop 8 issue has me thinking a lot, and I have one fundamental problem with the whole issue. For the life of me, I cannot seem to find one argument against homosexual marriages that doesn't find its roots in a religious argument. On such I hot button issue, I did the ol' google and youtube search, but really didn't come across much.
So I turn to you, the hundreds of thousands of brilliant minds that follow this blog on a minute by minute basis. What is it? Why is a same-sex marriage wrong, without all the religious value system assumptions?
For me, it has always been about protecting one's rights until those actions infringe on another's rights. So actions we as a society deem "wrong" typically are so because they infringe on another's rights. Murder in the first degree, for example, probably infringes a little on someone else's right to breathing and eating. Well, maybe just breathing. I wouldn't want to offend someone.
Stealing...you get the idea.
I am sorry didn't study philosophy and ethics all the much in college, so these arguments probably appear quite elementary. But is this issue, one that is causing the Mormon Church to dump loads of money into, one that is springing up protests and rallies overnight, and one that has political media buzzing...is it that elementary?
I suppose that an elementary discussion of issues can affect a whole lotsa people.
Let me know your thoughts, or at least copy and paste a link to someone who thinks like you.
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12 comments:
I don't know why they can't just come right out and say what Prop 8 is really about...homophobia. If you ask any Prop 8 supporter how gay couples having the same rights as straight couple negatively affects America at all, you will get the same answers:
"They will teach gay marriage in our schools!"-What the hell does this even mean? The ONLY required time to discuss marriage in schools is in High School during sex ed classes...I personally don't remember learning about marriage at all in school and all we want to teach is tolerance and the end of hatred. You heard the same arguments when it was women, African-Americans, or all of the other minorities who had their rights stripped away.
"Churches will be FORCED to perform gay weddings"-Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG! Churches do not have to perform weddings for anyone unless they so choose. Even as a straight couple, my boyfriend and I can't go into a church and say "Marry us Dickhead!" and expect good results. The only person that will be forced to do anything is the person who signs the marriage license...and I'm sure they would be glad to do it!
"What's next? People marrying horses!?!"-Sheer stupidity. You want a solution to that problem? Define marriage as a union between a human and another human. Done.
It's about hatred and fear, that's the bottom line. Go find a couple (gay or straight) that have been together many years and ask them what kept them together. Their answer won't be "the sanctity of marriage". As long as straight couples can get drunk and married in Vegas the first night they meet, there is no such thing.
as for the ethics, let me work on a note about that. need more time than my little rant
I think that almost all of the arguments against gay marriage are, fundamentally, rooted in religion. I don't necessarily think that everyone that voted for Prop 8 is religious, but those beliefs are founded in fundamentalism.
And I agree with Mike, whoever he is. I wish one person who was against gay marriage and for "preserving the family" would just come out and say what they really want to say. It's homophobia, pure and simple. With civil rights in the past century and gay rights in this, it's the same thing.
Opponents realize they can't just outlaw being gay (or black), so they do everything in their power to make it harder. Of course these people have no problem with the actual marriage of two men, they have a problem with these two men being together in the first place. If they're going to be bigots, they should just go all the way. It's bullshit and two-faced.
There's an excellent article on Slate about all this, but the comments are actually more enlightening, especially this thread in particular: http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums/thread/2080239.aspx?ArticleID=2203911
People feel threatened by other people who aren't like them.
You're white and I'm black, you're a woman and I'm a man...it goes on and on. Isn't that what discrimination (minus any sort of religious justification--I'm not denying how much it muddies this issue), is based on?
I agree with Mike. My own brother used that exact argument in support of Prop 8: "What's next, marriage between a father and daughter?"
It's hatred against people who are different based on the fear that they will somehow threaten or change their own comfortable worldview.
These are all really fantastic points. I certainly agree it is entirely rooted in homophobia and fundamental (religious) values. Thank you for the link Marcus. When I have more time tonight I am looking forward to diving in. But you are certainly right. You cannot outlaw homosexuality (some folks would love to) so take away rights that "normal" people have. All of this goes back to here:
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=64300737#/note.php?note_id=42965979782&ref=mf
A perfect connection between "Marriage and Domestic Partnership" and the notion of "Separate but Equal" during the civil rights.
What happens to the "yes on prop 8" crowds when faced with a comparison to the civil rights of blacks? I am a little curious to the rebuttal.
Also, I think Rose is correct. It is a fear of difference. But is that an appropriate arguing point? Because we are afraid of a difference, it suddenly becomes an absolute wrong? I understand the fear, but what is the reasoning, arguements to support it? Teaching in schools? Marriage to horses? I think we touched on those...
I know I am preaching to the choir here. I posted this as a note on Facebook. I hope some folks from the other side join the discussion. I am really trying to understand what they are trying to say. If you know anyone else who wants to help me out, please, point them this way.
Doug! I like that you think about things instead of just accepting them. Now, I know that most of my friends will adamantly disagree with me here, and I'm almost certain to piss someone off, but here are my thoughts. (For the sake of peace, I hope no one I know reads this...)
From a political perspective, I find no constitutional grounds to ban gay marriage. This is the biggest, non-religious reason why I support gay marriage. (I voted against anti-gay-marriage prop 2 in Florida.)
From a social perspective, it's a bit more complicated. According to anti-gay rhetoric, homosexuality has an enormous negative impact on society and individual health. I really don't know if this is true, because all the evidence seems to be coming from highly biased sources. It's an interesting thought though. Wiki lists some negative psychological factors ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_psychology#Anti-gay_attitudes_and_behaviors ) but these may come from the inherent difficulty of living that lifestyle in a country that is so directly opposed to it. As a matter of fact, Left-handed types have a shorter average lifespan than righties. This is probably due to lefties having to adapt to a world designed for righties. And, coincidentally, being left-handed was also condemned by the Church at some point in time.
From a religious perspective, I also support gay marriage. (To my Christian brothers/sisters, I know this sounds absurd, but hear me out.) I fully agree with the Bible that the homosexuality is a sin, but so is hate, and judging those outside the Church, and arrogance. C.S. Lewis (the most prominent Christian theologian of modern times) said that pride seems to be the worst of sins according to God's economy. And I agree with Lewis.
What is it, exactly, that motivates us Christians to condemn homosexuality? I think the modern Church as a whole is so opposed to this idea because we Christians are so far off from the things that were close to Jesus' heart. We're often more concerned about enforcing what is "correct" that we forget to do what is right.
To my Christian friends, (if you are still reading and not write angry comments to me,) consider (among others) the story of Jesus and the woman caught in adultery in John 8:3. The Pharisees brought her to Jesus and asked what should be done, knowing full well that the Law, (God's Law,) required (not just recommended, but required) that the woman be stoned to death.
Jesus brought about a new law. A law that fulfilled and expounded upon the former law. He said, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone". He didn't judge or condemn her. (There is a place and time for judgment/discernment/rebuke within the Church, but, from what I see in the Bible, not without.)
Now, one reason I mention this story, is that many Christians chant about preserving the sanctity of marriage. Well, if that were a significant concern of Jesus, then don't you think he would have stoned the adulteress? Not only did He ignore enforcing marital sanctity, He also ignored the Old Testament law requiring it of Him. It seems clear to me that Jesus is much more concerned about the woman herself than He is about making her live righteously.
So, to sum up my stance from a religious perspective, I believe homosexuality to be immoral, just as things in my life are immoral. But I don't think Jesus was all about teaching people morality. (This isn't to say that morality isn't important, or that homosexuality is the same as slipping a curse word, but those are discussions for another time.) I think He was passionate about teaching people how to have a relationship with Him. If all I heard from Christians was how immoral I am, I really don't think I'd want to hear about Jesus.
Three things seem to be primarily fundamental to the life of Jesus. The greatest commandments: Love God, Love people. And the great commission: go out and make disciples. That's it. It's really that simple.
And, also on the sanctity of marriage. When Christian marriages end in divorce 50% of the time, I really don't see how we should be the ones enforcing the standards.
I think we Christians should be much more concerned about the things that Jesus was concerned about: Loving God and living out God's Love practically into the lives of those around us.
Those are my thoughts. I don't have time/space to discuss everything in detail. Feel free to ask for clarification on any of my points.
Doug, I'm pleased to see that you are thinking about this issue. It's an important issue for the church, not because of the issue of homosexuality, but rather the Christian's role in governmental controlled morality.
Its difficult to find an argument against same-sex marriage that isn't based in religion. And the idea that one kind of marriage has some kind of impact upon another is somewhat flawed. (If that were indeed the concern, I'd say the failed marriage has a much greater impact on the institution than the same-sex marriage. Yet the church, that faces the same divorce rates as the rest of society, seems much less concerned about this problem, a problem that is sucking the life out of families in the church. Seek Christians that want to make divorce illegal again and you won't find many.)
So more importantly would be to ask what the proper role of the church is. Should the church be one of example and education or an institution of enforcement and forced belief over that of choice and free will. I hope members of the LDS are asking this question. I hope all Christians are asking themselves this question.
This is just a quick question for all you religious folk out there.
I grew up catholic, have since "lost my faith," as many would call it. My question has to do with what the bible says about homosexuality, directly. I know that it refers to it in:
Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Whenever a christian is forced to site their bible source they always come up with the same few. A few Corinthian quotes, and a few quotes from Leviticus. What I have never seen is a direct quote from Jesus.
I guess what I'm trying to ask/say, is that if homosexuality was such a big deal to the religion, (one of those hot topics,) then why didn't Jesus talk about it? I feel like if it was that big of a deal to the religion he would have at least touched base on the subject.
It sounds to me that people who wants to prevent gay from being married are advancing contradictory/embedded arguments. They are perfectly ok with divorce (which is really what destroyed marriage, but of course it is a touchy issue for them as many of them are divorced!) but when people wants to commit to serious engagement it becomes suddenly an out-of-control issue! I do not see how letting Gay do what they want here be an attack against them or the institution! Marriage is about commitment. On the contrary!!!! This world is so screwed and biased! The only message sent by these "Xtians" is a message of hate, and thus they have removed themselves from the Grace!! May God judge them as they judge the others! The Bible is a guide and not a constraining book! Jesus came to set us free and not to push people in corner!
Alain
I want to apologize to everyone that has been hated by me and other Christians.
I want to apologize to those that we Christians call "sinners".
I want to apologize to homosexuals and pro-choice proponents.
I want to apologize to those that think differently from us.
You see, we get caught up in silly things, in ideals, and religion. Things that Jesus never really cared about. We get so consumed with the need to enforce what... Read More is "correct" that we forget to do what is right. We lose sight of the things that Jesus was passionate about. We often live in judgment and condemnation instead of living in Love.
And so, on behalf of the Christian Church,
I'm sorry for treating you like you're ignorant.
I'm sorry for condemning you without even knowing you.
I'm sorry for not caring enough about you.
I'm sorry for trying to convert you to my cause.
I'm sorry for not showing you Jesus.
I'm sorry for not showing you Love.
I'm sorry for needing to be right all the time.
I'm sorry for not listening to you.
I'm sorry for the hate we've perpetuated.
I don't know who Sean is, but his apology is epic. I may just quote him.
Thank you Doug and friends for provoking such interesting thought and discussion...
I'm right there with ya.
Hey, thanks Meaghan. I appreciate that. I really felt that it needed to be said. The words are mine, but the idea came from Donald Miller's book, "Blue Like Jazz", which I highly recommend.
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